[1] 2
| Hypothetical question | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| 2008-08-27 11:11:49 | |||
ADMIN  Forum Posts: 3074 Comments: 405 Reviews: 1 | If lflipout and co. are right ...would you still continue to be a fan? This is more of a philosophical kind of question; doesn't necessarily have to be with regard to Keanu, would work with any other person you like, but in this case it's common ground here. So let's say that they are right about at least some of the things - such that he's a gay liar who didn't want his baby, is constantly drunk and/or on drugs, who once raped random people and happily manipulates the press to hide the truths and present him in a better light, and all that. But with everything else remaining constant, if everything else has been the same up till now and after all the time you've spent in fandom, would this alone be enough to make you stop being a fan? Keeping in mind that probably all of us here have never met the guy anyway, all we know of him does come from second hand sources, be they the media or strange comments on dodgy message boards. Meanwhile, no matter what we think of him, whether good or bad, it probably wouldn't affect him in any way at all. He has enough fans and enough haters. Several moving either way would mean nothing to him. If Keanu suddenly turns out to indeed be one of the most degenerate human beings on the planet, would it mean that everything - all the fun gained from watching his films, all the fish we've swatted in his name, all the great times and laughter we've had together, all the dodgy excitement of shipping bootlegged copies of his films across continents, all the good things that would not have happened in our lives if not for Keanu - would they all become suddenly meaningless and somehow tainted in our memories? Would it be worth it to be a fan of an illusion, if that illusion brings you happiness, lets you meet new friends, inspires you, and makes you a better person? Would real, positive effects cancel out the discomfort that knowing that at the source of it is something bad? Can something or someone unpleasant be transformed into something pleasant by its fruits alone, and because of that be something worth preserving? After all, what is real? Even as of now, assuming that lflipout and co. don't know what they're talking about and there is no basis whatever to their accusations, it's still technically an illusion, a constructed image that we're seeing - not just of Keanu, but of everyone, really, all the more so if they're famous. We're never going to know the reality any way, or at any rate it's highly unlikely. With that in mind, does the reality actually matter at all? | ||
| Personality_Disorder | 2008-08-27 12:30:56 | ||
| Forum Posts: 52 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | I don't think I can answer this fully because I usually only become a big fan of people after some time. And after some time getting to know about Keanu, the image those loons present just doesn't add up. The fact that they sound like they have a major agenda but pretend they are genuine doesn't help matters either. I'll give you the most obvious example. When Jennifer Syme died a lot of people started posting the most base stuff you could think of all over Keanu boards and film boards. Suddenly, he was one of those messes that lflipout likes to dream about, and the dead mother of his child was proof of it. Never mind that logically, Keanu had just spent close to a year in a practical boot camp that was The Matrix filming with everything from insane schedules to piss tests (for the super-sceptical types). None of that mattered though. Keanu had gone through a personal tragedy and that meant he was scraping the bottom of the barrel and a dead man walking. Add to that the fact that it seems human nature to become immediately privvy once a tragedy happens and someone is dead. Everything else doesn't make much sense either. Lflipout probably lives on Datalounge, where not only everyone is gay, but everyone knows a detailed history of everyone that is gay. Most of that doesn't add up either. Usually, when in the process of deciding to become a fan of someone, I know what I see and I don't think it takes too much brainpower or background knowledge for others to see it too. We may not know Keanu personally but we can logically deduce quite a large amount of things. None of them add up to a degenerate. Furthermore, I think most can also see a degenerate without knowing it personally when it is posting non-stop on a board under one guise or another. As for having an illusion-based happiness, I think most people in any fandom accept that and are fine with it, to a degree. But it usually doesn't turn out to be the exact opposite of what they think they know. In general, it is easier to be a fan of a "thing" than a person. This is why I often love certain works of art but really don't like reading biographies of their creators. However, every now and then you end up a fan of a person, and while it is easier to be a sceptic and a cynic about them than to take stuff at face value, you are usually a fan because you really believe that person is worth your effort. So, in a roundabout way, reality doies matter, but I think it depends on the fan, as well as what you are a fan of and why you are a fan of it. Amanda p.s. Thanks again for the invite. | ||
| keanugirl76 | 2008-08-27 15:45:08 | ||
| Forum Posts: 268 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | I have to admit that, in spite of this, I would continue my fandom. Not as passionately as before, but I would go on anyway. As Amanda states, of course it depends on what we personally are. I, for instance, tend to be emotive, so it has often happened to me to meet or see people and like (or dislike them) at once. I try to rationalize and think about why I like or dislike a person, but it's difficult and I often can't answer. It just happens this way, and that's all. And I emphasize DISLIKE, because I cannot HATE anybody. And I think it also depends on the aspects of reality that matter to you. To me, if Keanu turned out to be gay, it wouldn't affect me at all, because I have nothing against being gay. I have some friends who are gay and they are the nicest persons in this world. If he turned out to be a drug addict/drunk all the time, it wouldn't affect me either. I mean, if I were him I wouldn't do it, but after all, it's his own business. If he turned out to be a criminal and stuff like this, well, I would be unpleased, angry, disgusted and so on, but there would be nothing I could do about it. But honestly I don't think he is. Just look at his glance: when people are really bad, their eyes reveal it clearly. You notice at once that there's something wrong with them. Fot all the rest they can 'act', but not with their glance. | ||
| 2008-08-27 18:18:26 | |||
| Forum Posts: 474 Comments: 6 Reviews: 0 | About him being gay? I would not care. My yaoi inclination aside (  ), I think it's his life and he does not owe explanations to his fans about it.About being a trashed up bum? He kind of is one, and that doesn't bother me. About being a bastard like diva who sleeps with directors for parts, ruins people's lifes and that mysteriously controls the media? I find that unlikely, and it would throw me off a bit. It does sound like a great synopsis for a crappy soap opera, though. Or an episode of Nip/Tuck.
If reality was too brutal and too hard to ignore, such as the all criminal deal, I think it would matter... and all the past fish-hunting, film-buying, etc, etc, would leave a bad taste in the mouth. I try not to mix the artist with the resulting art, as the confusion some people make between the two can be pretty insidious. A piece of art should be admired as an object in itself. But certain events are too difficult to forget when you listen to a song, watch a movie, and so on. And when one admires a personality (ex.: Keanu), and not just the art that personality is related to (ex.: The Matrix), the lines separating art and artist are completly blurred.
Having lost my two closest relatives, I know this happens from personal experience. There is that all facet of knowing who your true friends are and all, but... When something bad happens to or around you, some people prefer to imagine you HAD to provoke it in some way. It's a way of cruel self-preservation, actually: people would rather think the person suffering deserved it in some way, because facing the fact that sometimes bad things happen to perfectly normal individuals is just too terrifying. | ||
| Personality_Disorder | 2008-08-28 00:48:21 | ||
| Forum Posts: 52 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | (ckage @ Aug 27 2008, 06:18 PM) You really think he is? I don't know why I just don't see this then. I mean I suppose it's possible for someone to just make it" and be very successful even while being a completely irresponsible mess, but I feel like it doesn't add up, and it kind of undermines Keanu's achievements if people really keep saying that he is a bum, usually because of the stereotypical external things like him not shaving or wearing the same clothes all the time. Not to mention that he's had to be pretty responsible for a few of his family members. | ||
| 2008-08-28 10:48:12 | |||
| Forum Posts: 328 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | Dang you Anakin! I was thinking about this all day today! *shakes fist at Anakin*  Where to start? Where to start? This will probably be long and rambling and maybe not make a whole lotta sense, but bear with me! Okay, first off, I think Keanu has a dark and light side (like everyone pretty much-you know some are darker than others and some are lighter than others). There's a photograph of him, where half his face is in light and half is in dark and I always think that sums him up perfectly. (I forget the photographers name, but I believe the photos were first published in a Spanish magazine? I think around the time of Constantine) I see his dark side (and yeah there can be debate about what constitutes a dark side, I mean, how dark and what *exactly* that constitutes). Anyways, I think his dark side comes from more of a self destructive streak-the drinking too much (sometimes), dabbling in drugs, smoking, demon rides etc.... I mean, (most) everyone pretty much has something they do that might not be the best for them, but it's a habit or it makes them feel a certain way. I also think Keanu can be quite sarcastic when he wants to be. So my guess is that he's more "dark" towards himself than anyone else. JMO The flip side (no pun intended) is he comes across as very kind, generous, decent, hard working, passionate person. And lots of co-workers rave about his work ethic and intelligence and kindness. I know there's a lot of butt kissing in Hollywood, but to me, if they were really just doing that I don't know if they'd be so effusive? I mean, why be so specific, if they were just "lying" to say something nice?? As for him being possibly gay, that wouldn't bother me. I would feel sad that he felt he had to deny it for so long. As for being constantly drunk or on drugs, well we've seen pictures of him drinking, so obviously he drinks. He confessed to doing drugs. I think he'd have been to rehab a few times already if those things were really problems for him. I've seen him at some events and it's not like he was stumbling down the red carpet or anything. As for not wanting his baby? All I know is the speculation around his and Jennifer's relationship. Nothing based on fact. Except that he was seen with her (before and after she became pregnant). He went to her funeral. It was said by Jennifer's mother that he bought her a jeep and a house. His mother went to her funeral. Who really knows? People that want to bring up the deceased and speculate about the relationship, (one that has been over for a while) seem to just derive some kind of perverse glee in speculating and riling other people up.I mean, why dwell, really?? Raping random people I would have a problem with. It's just not cool and if I found out that he was like that it would diminish my view of him. Not saying I think he's perfect (some of his choices in women make me scratch my head, but it's his life), but I think violating another human being in that manner is one of the worst things a person can do. As for manipulating the press to make himself look better, well I don't know about that. If he actually does that. He may to an extent. I think earlier in his career he was much freer with the press and journalists. I think seeing how his words were distorted and he was misunderstood has made him a bit wary and press shy. Being a private person myself, I can understand why he makes some of his answers "vague". Some may think he has something to hide, but I just don't think he wants to talk too much about himself (reveal too much about himself) and a vague answer is as good as any. I mean sometimes just saying "Yes" or "no" says it all.   To switch gears, I think everyone has their own version of Keanu in their mind (that could be with any fan object really). Maybe it matches what he's like in real life and maybe it doesn't. I think it's all kind of a construct of the mind anyway. With Keanu he's done so much variety in his work (character portrayals) and has diverse interests, so his appeal is pretty broad. I mean, I've met so many different people from different walks of life who think he's awesome! (are fans) And thinking about all the people he's brought together because of his work and who he is is an amazing thing to contemplate. I like Keanu because I like his work. I like the roles that he chooses. I like how he's so passionate about his craft, though he gets a lot of flak for it at times. I also like the way he looks at things. His interviews are some of my favorite things to watch. If he was to turn out to be some kind of degenerate, sure that would probably tarnish the luster a bit. I'd probably still go see his films. I mean, he'd have to be a rapist or murderer or pedo for me to change my mind about him and dislike him completely. It wouldn't take away some of the good friendships I've made or conversations I've had with other fans though. To *finally* answer your initial question. I said I would ramble and it would be long! Also, Anakin at CK you said that in uni you were talking about an article on the Matrix and "it talked about how the world is gradually moving towards images, such that everything we know and understand about the world is through those images - often controlled by people in power, like governments or first-world countries, or Hollywood, and through this they have the power to shape our perception of the world and things in it." I think that's true to an extent. It does seem like image is taken at face value more and more and most people don't want to delve a bit deeper. I also think there are people who *can* see beyond the surface and get a bit annoyed with the superficiality. It's like meeting a cute guy and then by talking to him he turns out to be a jerk. Quelle bummer.  Maybe these things are happening simultaneously. Maybe there are people who can see that they're being manipulated by images and then there are people who just take what they're seeing as "truth." I mean, there are actually some people who think characters on tv are real!  I don't know, I liked the image question, but I don't know if I have a definitive answer on it.  And to sum it up I think some people just have such a negative view of things and life that they need to bring others "down" to make themselves feel better. I see it a lot on the Internet-mostly insults to celebs or people in the public eye or people online. And why really? Because the ego likes to fight or likes to feel good by being involved in drama. Thankfully, not everyone is a drama queen, but sadly they're the ones who seem to garner the most attention in life and online. Thereby satisfying their egos. Thanks for letting me ramble. I'm sure there can be a whole long discussion over perception and reality and perception *as* reality.   P.S. I've been lucky to see Keanu in person a few times and he was different than what I had imagined. Not better or worse necessarily, just different than the image I had in my head. I wasn't disappointed, just more like, okay, *that's* who he is. I think that's the best way I can explain it.  | ||
| 2008-08-28 11:17:45 | |||
ADMIN Forum Posts: 3074 Comments: 405 Reviews: 1 | Great replies.
*throws Donnie's head at you*  True about the light side dark side thing; it's just that it's hard to see just how far the dark side might go.  (the flip side should have been the dark side instead of the light side. )Yeah, that's the one that I find most disturbing, especially after the very long and dramatic account of someone on Topix who insisted that he raped her when he was a teenager or something. Apparently some of the details didn't quite add up though, so I have no idea where that went...
! When was that? And different how? And what's your CK username? | ||
| keanugirl76 | 2008-08-28 15:37:19 | ||
| Forum Posts: 268 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | I couldn't agree more. And I think that the more you are private, the more the press bashes you, just because you don't give them what they want. IMO this explains why other celebrities, everyday on covers, everyday news, are 'forgiven' by press whenever their movies turn out to be flops. Not to mention the fact, this time related to all people - famous and not - that the more you are shy, the more you are unpleasant. To me, extroversion is just the opposite of introversion and that's all. I wonder why everything must be necessarily listed under positive or negative. What's wrong with being private? You know, I think this is just one of the first issues that people who control society want us to believe: that success - or even normality - must come from being extroverted and brilliant. According to them, you have to achieve this within your 10th year of life, that within your 20th and so on, and if you have not been able to or you don't care about it at all, you are total failure or, at least, you are rather strange. If you tend to stay on your own, then people think that there must be something wrong with you. I know people that, as they noticed that their children showed some introversion, took them to the psychologist at once. I think it's just crazy, and sad. Yes, powerful politicians and media manipulate us a lot, despite we try to use our own brain (this is the first thing they don't want us to do). Just consider the fact that they make us concentrate so much on celebrity gossip and not on issues that really matter... | ||
| 2008-08-28 16:11:22 | |||
| Forum Posts: 4842 Comments: 381 Reviews: 13 | great replies indeed ... mine's at the other place  but I stand in awe at the posts here... you guys really have a way with words... and an insightful thinking...
as far as each of us is willing to go, ani. I guess ... and some people are more curious and prone to experimenting than others. which could lead that way too... | ||
| 2008-08-28 17:07:31 | |||
| Forum Posts: 474 Comments: 6 Reviews: 0 | (Personality_Disorder @ Aug 28 2008, 12:48 AM) Well, by "trashed up bum", I mean a person who, when not working, let's himself go in the physical department, walks around with somewhat worn clothes, tapped/old shoes, and has a drink or two... (or more...). And he pretty much does all of that. That does't mean Keanu does not take his work seriously. Which he most certainly does. It also does not mean he can't be a responsible and caring person, which he seems to be. He simply does not seem to give a damn when it comes to his looks while not working, and rather go around as he feels confortable. An attitude I admire, actually. | ||
| 2008-08-28 21:09:13 | |||
| Forum Posts: 115 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | (Anakin McFly @ Aug 27 2008, 11:11 AM) What the?! What??? I haven't heard this one before! Sheesh, what more can these so-called fans come up with?! OK, haven't got time to read this whole thread tonight, but here's my 2c: * that he's a gay liar - that's his business, no change IMO of him * who didn't want his baby - again, his business, many men don't want the responsibility of parenthood, especially if they feel they've been tricked into it. Not saying that that's what happened in his case, just saying that no, this would not lessen my opinion of him. *is constantly drunk and/or on drugs - no change IMO of him, other than that I would be concerned for his health and disappointed he is mistreating himself *who once raped random people - WFT?! Who comes up with these things? Now this, no, I couldn't stomach and it would most definitely change my opinion of him; to be capable of this would prove him to be some kind of monster with no respect for others and a cold soul. But seriously who could believe this crap?? Knowing what we know of him - how he comes across - no matter how great an actor he is, he could never pull off the kind of sweet souled person he comes across as AND be guility of such a dark and heartless action. * and happily manipulates the press to hide the truths and present him in a better light, and all that - who cares? Don't all "celebrities" do that? Sheesh! Flip & co need to get a life, or start a new career writing sensational fiction... though they'd probably be more successful writing for glossy gossip columns or on the blogs of those online-pap types. I don't know if there is a "career" name for them. Apart from "professional slimeballs". Or becoming soapie writers. I will have to come back and read this whole thread when I have more time, as some of the points I skimmed across are very interesting. Good thinking post Anakin. TWO | ||
| 2008-08-28 21:28:22 | |||
ADMIN Forum Posts: 3074 Comments: 405 Reviews: 1 | Someone on Topix once wrote a very long dramatic story about how she was raped by Keanu when he was a teenager. That was so far the most traumatising thing I've read, and after lflipout, that's saying a lot. Apparently some of her details didn't quite line up (Keanu was supposedly in a whole other part of the world at that time), but she was very insistent that it was him, and sounded very distraught and got people sympathising with her and things like that. Might be just a regular attention whore, who knows.  Someone else pointed out that if it had really happened, she could have sued him and gotten really rich if people had paid her to shut up. Can't remember her reply; something about how she had tried but couldn't get through to them or something. The thing that got me most was that some of her descriptions of his behaviour did sound creepily like Keanu, which means that she's either hardcore enough of a fan to have some idea of what he's like, in which case what's with the slander? (then again if folks like lflipout can exist...), though it's also possible that maybe she actually did know him. Or, well, it's teenage! Keanu. He once dived out a second floor window into a swimming pool stark naked as a dare or something, and was supposedly notorious for doing strange practical jokes on people. Who knows what else he might have done that might have been taken the wrong way, not necessarily with malicious intent. | ||
| 2008-08-28 21:50:18 | |||
| Forum Posts: 474 Comments: 6 Reviews: 0 | This does sound like a good description of what might have been a Teen-K. He did look like the type that would blurt out strange/ridiculous shyte that might have rubbed people the wrong way. *looks at user status* Why in blazers am I a "Fisherman's Apprentice"?!! I want my status reviewed and properly updated!! | ||
| 2008-08-28 21:59:45 | |||
ADMIN Forum Posts: 3074 Comments: 405 Reviews: 1 | Yeah; apparently he still does that now, and then wonders why people get offended because they don't get his sense of humour. Someone - I think Carrie-Anne Moss or Sandra Bullock - mentioned how he sometimes said things that made you want to slap him, and then he'd say something else that made you want to hug him...Fishermen's Apprentice until 250 posts. Next rank is Master Fisherman....Alternatively you could edit your profile thing and make it say whatever you want. | ||
| Fiercelyred | 2008-08-29 00:33:27 | ||
| Forum Posts: 125 Comments: 2 Reviews: 0 | Great thread. Personally, I could "live"with just about everything, except for extreme manipulation/lying (everybody does it to a certain extent) and of course the rape thing. Maybe the girl who claimed to have been raped by Keanu really had this awful experience happen to her, though not by Keanu? I could see someone getting "confused" after such a traumatizing event, and mess up people/places etc. And if she was a fan of Keanu and knew details of his life, it would explain how it sounded like him. It wouldn't be the first time a victim of abuse accuses the wrong person, while sincerely believing in his/her own story. | ||
| 2008-08-29 08:46:55 | |||
| Forum Posts: 328 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | *ducks* but gets some Donnie goop on my hand. Yuck!  In Keanu's life like researching a role or just in general? I mean, I read that for The Gift that Keanu and Hilary Swank did a sort of acting exercise where he had to grab her and rip off her clothes and get sort of violent with her (yelling and slapping her) and it took him to a different place. (the director had to stop it I believe?) I read that he did realize after that that he was an angry guy (I think he has issues with his dad, but then who doesn't? Ha!) There's a great quote, I forget who said it, the director of Constantine I think(?), who said Keanu has a calm exterior but a emotional interior. I think he used a different word than emotional, but I could see that about Keanu. Having more depth and layers than he usually shows on the outside. As for how dark? I think things would've come out already if he was a violent type of person? Don't you think? I mean, I've always gotten the impression he's pretty passive. As for the gay thing, all actors pretty much have that said about them. I've seen him flirt with women, so it's hard to reconcile that in my head (him being gay). Though, I'm not so close minded as to think he might not be bi or have experimented that way in the past. Alrighty smarty pants!
Topix, blech. I've tried to read there a few times, but some of the posters just rub me the wrong way and I can't get into the format there. I didn't see the post your talking about specifically, but there was another poster on IMDB (this was a while ago) who used to say the most outrageous things about Keanu. beezleworth or something? Or viviantaub. Speed_Of_Late knows the poster I'm talking about. She would always tell them to take their meds. She (beezleworth/viviantaub) would write that Keanu had raped her when they were children and that he had many children by other women in other countries and terrible things had happened to her when she was young, because of Keanu. And a bunch of other stuff. It just really seemed like the writings of an mentally unstable person. I think you can sort of tell when someone is "off."
Just kidding. I'll PM you here or at IMDB. | ||
| 2008-08-29 09:01:46 | |||
| Forum Posts: 328 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | keanugirl76 said:Exactly! I mean, how many celebrities "spill" their life stories!?? Sometimes I just want to go "Too Much Information!" I mean, in some instances I think it's admirable (like Christina Applegate coming forward and saying she had breast cancer. I'm sure things like that will help a lot of people get check ups etc...). But some others, it's like if they have a hang nail it's a big trauma and they must tell the world about it. I don't know, it just seems like some behaviors just scream "Look at me! Look at me!" and it comes from an egotistical place. Like they *need* attention. Maybe they didn't get enough love or attention when they were younger? *Nothing* is wrong with being private! I know people who I've just met and within 15 minutes I know their whole life story.  I'm not necessarily bagging on people who do that, but for me personally I would never dream of doing that. It's just such a foreign concept to me. Little basic details, where someone works or what they do or where they live etc...I have no problem with, just sometimes small talk can get too "personal." Especially, with someone you've just met. JMOSee, I think what people think is "normal" can be wack! A lot of it's based on externals. If externals really were the end all be all, then why would so many beautiful, accomplished, wealthy people be so miserable!? I truly believe happiness is an inner state. People are just really looking to be happy, and think that when they get the house, the car, the promotion, fill in the blanks, *then* they'll be happy. If your not happy right now, you're chasing an illusion. JMO That is sad.  I'm trying to get a copy of a book by one of the Rockefellers. "Memoirs" by David Rockefeller and he's alleged to say that the people in power *want* people to be distracted by sports scores and gossip and celebrity and not think about real issues. Of course, I haven't gotten this book yet, so I'm not sure if he actually did say that, but I'm really curious to see if he did. | ||
| 2008-08-29 09:03:57 | |||
ADMIN Forum Posts: 3074 Comments: 405 Reviews: 1 | Donnie goop: *comes to life* Buzeeworkerant. Like a busy worker ant, only different!I don't remember her talking about rape; just a whole lot of stuff about how Keanu "hacked" her children. | ||
| 2008-08-29 09:15:34 | |||
| Forum Posts: 328 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | Fiercelyred said:
Maybe this doesn't necessarily apply, since it's suppose to be Teen Keanu, but I remember Ashton Kutcher on one of the talk shows (Leno I think?), before he married Demi Moore-during That 70's Show, saying there was some guy going around impersonating him and hooking up with some fans. Ashton wasn't happy about it, because I guess some of these "fans" would come up to the real Ashton and be a bit upset. Needless to say. Who knows what else the "fake" Ashton did? I can only imagine. I mean, there are fake Keanu's online (MySpace) and sadly I think some people have gotten taken in by some of them. Who knows what some people think or do when they impersonate a celeb? Not to mention the people who fall for it? Like fiercelyred said I could see how someone experiencing a traumatic event could get confused or maybe the guy looked like a bit like Keanu? Who knows? I know Keanu hasn't been a teenager in awhile (he's going to be 44 next week). I would hope if that poster was really raped by someone, that she'd gotten some therapy by now. Now that that necessarily heals everything, but it's a good start. | ||
| 2008-08-29 09:18:45 | |||
| Forum Posts: 328 Comments: 0 Reviews: 0 | *Screams really loudly!* Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!  Yes, that's it. Buzeeworkerant. There might of been two of them. I didn't save their demented ramblings, but I know one of them was posting about Keanu abusing her when they were children.  | ||
[1] 2
You must be registered and logged in to post on the forums.